List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

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List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

Postby jeffw » Thu May 28, 2015 9:16 am

There is a proposal before the MSA Speed Sub-Committee (of which Chin is a member and supporter of this change) which will outlaw List 1b and List 1c tyres from the Road Going classes from 2017 onwards.

https://www.msauk.org/assets/speedevent ... tation.pdf


We, the actual sprinters, need to object to this change by emailing this (or something in your own words)

MSA Tyre Regulation Change
Proposed Regulation Wheels and tyres
11.6.1. Deleted.
11.6.2. Except for Period Defined Vehicles (NonRally) A-H inclusive tyres are to L List 1A .
Reason: Nationwide harmonisation and cost for what is seen as the entry Category Implementation: 1 st January 2017

This regulation change will affect all Roadgoing Series Production Cars and Roadgoing Specialist Production Cars. So every car currently competing in the roadgoing classes of Sprint & Hillclimb.
The effect will be to ban all List 1B & 1C tyres, which will have a major impact on the sport as currently significant numbers of competitors use these tyres including:-
Most high performance cars eg:- Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus etc together with performance saloons eg Audi RS, BMW M Series and Mercedes AMG all have these tyres fitted as standard by the manufacturer and it is believed that list 1A tyres are actually NOT available for some of these vehicles. Thus effectively banning the vehicle from competing.
Almost all of the Roadgoing Specialist Production cars not only come with list 1B tyres from the manufacturers, but the vast majority of Championships specifically allow them. For a larger number of car in this class running 13” wheels there are no safe alternatives to List 1b tyres.
So this one rule change will affect around 50% of the competitors in the Sprint & Hillclimb events, either directly stopping them from competing or making it costly to do so by this change.
I therefore object to this change and request that it does not go ahead.

to SpeedConsultation@msauk.org

If we do nothing this ludicrous change will be imposed on us and wipe out 50% of the cars currently competing in club sprints. We must do something to make our voice heard before June 12th.
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Re: List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

Postby robhume » Thu May 28, 2015 9:31 am

Jeff, this does not affect me, but were the sprinters that this may impact on consulted, either at club level or regional level.

Without trying to open a can of worms, would someone who actually competes in sprints and hill climbs be better placed to make such judgements based on competitors views.

Seems daft to me that a bunch of guys can just suggest such a sweeping change without consultation.

Also, if these tyres are legally usable on the road, why are they being banned for competition.
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Re: List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

Postby jeffw » Thu May 28, 2015 10:04 am

There are members on the Speed SC who sprint (I know of 1 at least). I don't know how committee members are chosen or indeed who is on the Speed SC so cannot comment on that side of it although it would make sense to have a cross section of active sprinters in the committee if only to represent the sport to the MSA.

The current 2015 List 1b tyres will be List 1c in 2016 as the EU regulations have made these, existing, 1b tyres illegal for road use. This is the result of the EU deciding to introduce a Fuel Efficiency rating on Tyres (like you get on a fridge) and unsurprisingly the tyres which have the most grip have the worse fuel efficiency (mind you we are only talking 10% between Grade A & Grade G). All the current List 1b tyres are G rated and the EU has decided they must be F or better to get an E mark. No E mark no road-legal, no List 1b. There are new track tyres which are F rated (Toyo R888R and Avon ZZS for instance) and these are likely to be in the 2016 List 1b.

So, in short, the decision has been made to outlaw G rated tyres for RG sprinting from 2016 (even if they are road-legal still and have an E mark).

On top of this a proposal has been put to the Speed SC to ban all List 1b from Road Going classes from 2017. So not only do we need to buy new 1b tyres for next year but they want us to use 1a tyres from 2017.

The impact of these changes will be staggering and we will likely see only standard road-going cars and single seaters at club sprints. Indeed I would expect the kit car classes are likely to break away from the MSA and run their own sprint series like MLR do now. Please take the time to object to these changes which will decimate our sport.
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Re: List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

Postby Suze » Fri May 29, 2015 8:00 am

Chaps,

This came up at the ASEMC and there are a number of points you may wish to know.

Firstly - this potential change is not going through without consultation - as per the original post and links provided there is a consultation process. A specialist committee can put forward a proposal (which has happened in this case), and it then goes out for consultation before going back to the committee and then through to Motor Sports Council post consultation. The specialist committee will receive the information received during the consultation process before deciding whether to put it in front of the MSC as it is, amend, withdraw, etc. (If it is a matter of safety the MSA can implement rule changes straight away).

Secondly - the specialist committees - you can find a list of who is on which committee in your blue book. Nominations for committees from 2016 onwards are currently being sought so if you want to get involved or have someone you feel you'd like to see and want to talk to them/suggest they apply for it, do it now! There are also details about the application process and how to apply on p12 at https://www.msauk.org/assets/msanews610515.pdf

Thirdly and as mentioned above - nearly all 1B tyres are no longer going to be manufactured. This isn't the MSA's or a motor sport decision, it is the tyre maker's decision due to the requirement for e-marked tyres and their struggle to meet this. This is why so much of list 1b has an asterisk next to the tyre name - p199 of your Blue Book or https://www.msauk.org/assets/2015msayearbook.pdf
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Re: List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

Postby jeffw » Fri May 29, 2015 11:15 am

There are already new tyres which will make List 1b for next year, Toyo R888R and Avon ZZS. There are no suitable List 1a tyres in the 13" rim size most kits run on. Which is why this is not a sensible decision and will lead to the decimation of RG classes in Sprinting.

I will look at the sub-committee joining mechanism with a view to getting either myself or another kitcar sprinter on the committee.
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Re: List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

Postby Jim B » Sun May 31, 2015 3:48 pm

Although I sympathise with the powerful kit cars, I think that road going would be fine on 1A tyres. It has been this way in the past.

If you want to run on 1B tyres, is sports libre an option? Could there be a road going or kit car sub-category within sports libre?
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Re: List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

Postby jeffw » Sun May 31, 2015 8:08 pm

The current list 1b tyres are being removed from the list so I couldn't run as road-going with the current tyres.. As you say Sports Libre is an option but there are a whole load of cars with wings and slicks in that category so no real chance of a decent result.

I simply don't understand the logic of removing 1b tyres from the kitcar classes as it doesn't save anyone money, quite the reverse it will cost significant amounts of money. I can see clubs like the WSCC running sprints outside of the MSA if this goes ahead and club sprints being that much smaller as the kitcars go else where, in a normal NW sprint there must be 10 or so kitcars out of the 60 cars entered.
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Re: List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

Postby jeffw » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:45 pm

I understand after an overwhelming number of objections (119-1) that this proposal has been withdrawn. Nice to see some form of democracy in action for once.
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Re: List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

Postby ambulocetus27 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:26 pm

Great news - common sense prevails !
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Re: List 1b Tyres banned from 2017

Postby Gidz » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:17 pm

I mentioned it to Jim & he wrote to the MSA about it, but he doesn't get on here.
"The conditions are awful, I hate them. I have been driving like my grandmother. Still, it's my first time out with Ford and I'm leading the Monte Carlo rally ... that's not so bad." — Marcus Gronholm
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